I like that! I think that’s worth exploring in terms of how we conceive of ourselves and how women can become more self-identified–and woman-identified!

I COMPLETELY agree that performing femininity for the butch gaze can be reminiscent of the male gaze. The context is different, but it can be similarly objectifying. In dating a butch, I felt a community-based expectation to be more feminine than I felt at the time. There is definitely pressure on feminine people to exaggerate their presentation and go all High Femme!

I love this conversation! Irene, I think you’re in the Pioneer Valley? Move to Boston. :)

I really DO like this post! I must say, I never feel quite as free to explore my mind and open up to new ideas as I do with other queer ladies, femmes, or… people. Hate the assumptions my language nearly inevitably makes…

Your post, combined with many other bombardments (helpful ones!) are re-wiring my brain structure that formerly activated my disdain for femininity. I’m reading Whipping Girl by Julia Serano right now, don’t know if you’ve read it before, but it’s bringing up very similar issues regarding the nearly universal scapegoating of fem(me)ininity.

I just read your About Me part and it sounds like you had the same desires for community that I do… after spending 4 years at my college where people like me have our tiny community, I’d really like to move somewhere where I’m less the weirdo.

My brain’s fried right now and I’m not going to write anymore, but thank you for stopping by our blog! Nice to have people to keep me honest and always thinking.

Thanks for commenting!! And yes, totally, I agree with everything you said. I especially like this: “when we express these values amongst ourselves, to the benefit of other women, this alternate context changes the effect.” YES. And YES. I would add, “and to the benefit of ourselves” after your “to the benefit of other women,” because I think the MOST important thing is that we all express ourselves in a way that *feels right.* Ultimately, each of us is the only true authority on our own identity. And honestly, performing femininity for a butch female lover can be oppressive too (though the context certainly is different from performing femininity for a cisgendered male lover) if it’s not really a “skin” you feel comfortable in and/or you feel expected to conform to certain gendered expectations by your lover.

What I’m working on right now in my life is constantly checking in with myself around what FEELS right to me, what feels most like me (and not what pleases mi’lady… or what makes me look desirable to other people… because I still haven’t quite learned how to let go of those things as factors in my decisions of how to present myself). What’s most oppressive about the patriarchy and its demands for female femininity, I think, is that it socializes ALL girls and women, from birth on up, to think that we exist for the pleasure of others (men). The way we look is for the benefit of men. The way we act is for the benefit of men. And even once we’ve gotten rid of the “men” bit (as I most definitely have, ha), having been socialized in that way means that really, at its core, I never learned how to exist *by and for myself.*

Hmmm. I think I feel another post about this coming. Hopefully one that’s better articulated than this comment. Stay tuned. And thanks for the food for thought!!!

I also struggle with feminism’s rejection of femininity. Male supremacist definitions of “womanhood,” which of course are the basis for our oppression, are also the WAY in which we know each other as women. If not for these constructions (even to some small extent), what then, is the basis for our solidarity as women and as lesbians? WHAT is that we claim to LOVE *about* women, if not something having to do with our gendered conditioning?? (You know, the female form is gorgeous, but I love MUCH more about women than their physicality!) I’ve been more than a little upset about this apparent catch-22 and not even the most radical feminists have offered a proper answer. We can NOT know what “women” as a biological category would BE LIKE in the absence of patriarchal conditioning–we’re so saturated with it that it’s quite simply not possible.

The only semi-solution I’ve been able to come up with is exactly what you said: WE NEED a feminism that instead emphasizes the value in ALL expressions of WOMAN. There are certainly aspects of male-defined “femininity” that I believe ARE inherently harmful to women. But NOT all of them.

Behaviors like nurturing, listening, and care-taking are most detrimental to women when operating under the guise of PATRIARCHY. When we express these values amongst ourselves, to the benefit of other WOMEN, this alternate context CHANGES the effect. Suddenly, these feminine characteristics don’t seem quite so self-sacrificing! I believe VERY strongly that women are capable of creating a BALANCE between the (subjectively) positive aspects of both “male” and “female” to the benefit of women as a whole. We do not have any other choice!!

That’s my take. Thank you for writing this.